Bible Week Continues: Comparative Bible Reading November 20, 2007
Posted by Evil Bender in Morality, Religion.trackback
On my last Bible Week thread, Spartacus correctly pointed out that just because a violent act is mentioned does not mean it is endorsed. So it’s only fair, I think, to use a passage where God explicitly endorses a course of action. Let’s try 1 Samuel 15:
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ “
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
7Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.
10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 “I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Even assuming that every adult had absolutely earned complete destruction, what harm had the children and the animals done? I’ve never been able to understand how such commandments are compatible a all-good, all-powerful divine being. After all, genocide is clearly wrong when humans instigate it: if morality means anything, it must mean that it is also wrong when God engages in it.*
Hard to believe that passage comes from the same holy book as Matthew 5:
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Comparing those passages, it’s not hard to see why the Gnostic heresy would have been so appealing.
* Note again that this criticism only applies to Christians who feel the need to read every word of the Bible as literal truth. If one accepts the Bible was written by men (even if inspired–but not perfected–by God) then such passages fit in to what we would expect from a nomadic people of the era trying to survive. We don’t approve of their actions, but in a cultural context we can see why genocide might have been appealing to them. Only when genocide is given the explicit immutable approval does it become a critique of the divine being, rather than human failing.
It is a violent text and the list continues… Here is a link to quick view of death in the bible. Most passages listed on the site reach the catagory of God-Approved killings. I am well aware the site has a particular agenda, but it saves me the time of typing out several sections as well as forcing people to scroll through them who don’t wish.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
Betcha Bush was reading Samuel the night before he attacked Iraq. At least he felt better about himself in the morning.
Yup. When the Blues Brothers say they are on a mission from God, it’s awesome. When it’s the President of the United States saying it, it’s just terrifying.
Hey, EB. I weighed in on the last post so I figured I’d better not chicken out and pretend to ignore this one. I appreciate your response to my last comment. I’ve spent years thinking about this passage and others like it in Torah. This passage is not something that can be “explained away.” Trouble is, even if some interpretation of this passage could ease the controversy, it’s still true that seemingly innocent people die, guilty people seem to go unpunished, God seems to play favorites, and there is a world full of injustice. All I can say is something fairly close to what you have said in the past. In a world full of violence, injustice, hunger and poverty, I’m more concerned with people hurting people than trying to understand why God does it. I believe Hebrew scripture is clear that such troubles came through human failing rather than divine injustice. I’m not trying to dodge the issue. God clearly commands his followers to kill women, children and animals in this passage. I don’t know why. But I know that murder is not the perfect plan for humanity. I hope, at some point, people will act more like the Jesus quoted in Matthew 5 (as you quoted above) and less like ancient warring nomadic tribes. I know you and I disagree on a lot of religious ideas, but I appreciate the many similarities we share in our thinking on how people ought to treat other people. Your blog says lots of important things. Thanks for dealing honestly with these issues.
Spartacus, you make me curious.
Why continue to cling to religion at all? I would assert that there is a complete lack of evidence to support it, and as you point out, there is an alarming amount of contradiction and outright evil in the holy texts.
Why do you need it at all?
Ty:
Thanks for asking. I’m afraid that you will probably be unsatisfied with my answer, but I can only be honest. My reason for “clinging,” as you say, is just that I have had personal experiences with Jesus Christ. Believe me, I know how hokey that sounds. I used to be a skeptic myself. But I’ve prayed and been answered. I’ve followed scripture (on my good days) to the best of my ability and seen the results. I’ve worked hard to love people the way scripture shows Jesus of Nazareth loving people, and I’ve seen my life change and the people around me change, as well. In my estimation, Jesus represents the one the ancient Hebrews called YHWH. Therefore, I hang my faith on Hebrew scripture and Christian scripture. Or, rather, on the God I believe is represented by both. I’ve tried to believe other things. I’ve tried to be a good humanitarian, loving people without any reference to deity at all. I tried to believe that all religions are just people trying to live ethical lives in their own way. I just can’t see it. I can’t live in a way that helps myself or others without aiming to live like Jesus. That’s my reason. Sorry if it seems ridiculous.
Now, as far as “contradiction” is concerned, that’s a different discussion. Although I used to think so, I no longer think there are any true “contradictions” in scripture. But I guess my view of scripture is different than those of some Christians. I think people wrote the Bible in various places and times in the ancient world. I believe God used those people and their writings to represent himself. The Bible isn’t “God’s word” in the sense that some say it is. It’s man’s inspired words about God. Only God is God. The Bible isn’t God. I believe it’s true, though, and I think God is revealed in it. Feel free to ask any specific questions you like about contradictions in the text and I’ll give you my two cents on them. If they have bothered you, rest assured they have bothered me. This post is far too long. Sorry for a long answer to a short question. I just appreciate this blog because people will respectfully disagree with me rather than blasting me with their views. Thanks for your question!
Well, the truth is, you won’t have any answers I haven’t heard before. I spent thirty years in a fundamentalist christian religion before I became a skeptic. I went the opposite direction: started out believing everything in scripture, and only gradually learned to see the combination of a complete lack of evidence, coupled with contradictions that can only be remedied through the most tortured contortions of logic.
But, if you feel like it helps you be a better person than you’d be otherwise, I’m only happy for you.
I must admit that for me, it was a millstone around my neck making the world a horrible place to be. The minute I lifted it off by openly admitting I didn’t think any of it was true, I felt like I could fly.
I love the universe now, in all it’s messy and disorganized glory. Trying to reconcile the mess with an omnipotent designer gave me headaches. Once I yanked him out, the mess became beautiful and terrible and amazing.
Also, I became a better person. God is not going to fix anything for anyone. There’s no, ‘better place’ people go when they die. Which means we need to fix things now.
Thanks for the honest and polite answer to my question, though. I’ve read the bible through something like 20 times, several of those doing in depth study of it from the perspective of a deeply religious person. I’ve come to a point where I find it baffling that anyone finds any truth in it. I don’t think less of those who do, but I’m still baffled. Thanks for sharing your story.
Ty:
Thank you. Seriously. I guess this is the part where I just tip my hat to you and wish you well. I enjoyed the discussion.
[...] Bender in Morality, Religion, wingnuts. trackback Seems that Marshwiggle has taken issue with my suggestion that genocide is wrong.* You see, he figures that it must be okay because God said so. His argument can be summed [...]