Obama’s inauguration: Juan Cole on Rick Warren December 21, 2008
Posted by Evil Bender in Barack Obama, News and politics, bigotry.trackback
I’ve been too busy to find time to comment on Obama’s choice of bigot Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. Regular readers of this blog will know that I’m deeply angry that President Elect Obama would invite a man who argued for the stripping of rights from gay people. Obama’s choice of Warren has infuriated me, to be blunt.
But that just makes it all the more interesting to me how compelling is Juan Cole’s point about Warren, as it relates to Muslims, Melissa Etheridge, and Obama’s political and personal agendas. It’s too good to excerpt–just get over there and read it.
As always, I appreciate Mr. Cole’s insightful points. And I’m torn: I do want a political landscape where respectful disagreement and conversation are valued, one where reasoned debate is preferred to shouting down those who take other positions. But just how far should we extend that reasoning? Should their be a seat at the table for racists? Christian Reconstructionists? If someone is opposed to civil rights for atheists, but does good work on poverty, should I be expected to work with that person?
To put it another way, Warren unquestionably does good work in a number of areas, and I love that many younger evangelical leaders, including Warren, are more genuinely socially conscious than their elders. But how can I overlook that Warren lobbies against civil rights for LGBT people?
I genuinely want to find common ground with reasonable religious people and conservatives, but I’m not at all comfortable extending that good will to those who refuse to respect even the basic humanity of their gay brothers and sisters.
So I’ll ask my readers: is there a way to work on common causes with bigots, without throwing gay rights under the bus? If so, how should we go about it?
I think we have to be open enough to strike alliances that are effective. We can’t say that gay rights are more important the environment, poverty, or free speech. There has to be some give and take.
Look at Bono, for example. He works his ass off to work with everyone. Even crazy racist senators…
no, not really, if you insist on publicly calling them bigots. Just like if they insisted on publicly calling you names. If they do so, they don’t really want to work with you.
I think this is all much ado about nothin’.
I am a gay man and I loved Warren’s book, and know many others that it has inspired. I don’t have to agree with everything he says, just because he’s going to speak at an inauguration. He is not running for political office, he is just going to fill the role, that someone like Billy Graham did before him.
Much of middle America liked Warren’s book. I don’t have to agree with Warren’s politics. This is whining. And had gays (of which I am a member) would have pushed for “domestic partnerships” having the same rights they would not have lost. But many gays INSISTED that we call it marriage. Why? I liked “domestic partner”.
I know tons of people that weren’t happy with changing the institution of marriage, but that would not be offended by granting the same rights to domestic partnerships. I realize it’s semantics, but it’s the truth!
Warren didn’t cost gays their civil rights. We lost because of a poor strategy. Had we gone for insisting full rights for domestic partnerships, which is not an ugly term at all, the outcome would have been very different.
Again, I don’t have to agree with every belief the man has. So what if he is at the inauguration. I am still not getting a substantive answer from anyone. So what?
I am 45 years old, lost my partner to Aids in 1996. Billy Graham’s beliefs changed over time tremendously and the same is possible for Rick Warren. But this isn’t really about all of his beliefs.
It’s about the childish whining of supposedly tolerant liberals or conservatives that can’t just get along.
We would all get along better if the usage of the term and principal of “MODERATE” be brought back into our political dialogue.
Don’t you also have the fear of God, it is ungodly to be gay so there is nothing wrong speaking against it
Rick Warren represents people living in complete ignorance. Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians like him believe the literal version of the Bible’s creation story. They think the earth is only 6,000 years old, that evolution is a myth, and that President Bush was chosen by God to lead America against Islamic “Evildoers”.
These problems go MUCH deeper than Rick Warren.
Coincidentally, states that systematically cut funding for public education have more of these people (i.e. the South).
Don’t worry about it, Obama will be impeached soon anyway. He came from the corrupt Chicago political cesspool and will soon return when his dealings come to the surface. One guy awaithing sentencing is singing and the Illinois Governor will sing also.
Garry wrote: if you insist on publicly calling them bigots.
I call him a bigot because he treats gay people with intolerance, and argues that they should be denied rights extended to straight people.
David wrote: It’s about the childish whining
I’ll never understand why pointing out that Warren is intolerant is “whining” but inviting him to a supposedly inclusive event, even though he preaches exclusion, is completely acceptable.
Richard wrote: Obama will be impeached soon anyway. He came from the corrupt Chicago political cesspool
Ooh! Conspiracy theories and guilt by association. Substantive.
Guys in prison who bribed zoning commisions so that you could have a property next to yours that can’t be built on are facts. Ask someone from Chicago it things work there…I know. More will come out, be patient.
Come on, it’s a bipartisan effort to get everyone togeather.
He’s not right wing. He’s reaching out. Frankly, anyone he picked will be ridiculed. Next time you guys will be bitchin about what toilet paper he uses.
Fred:
Yes, everyone is being brought together. Except, of course, gays and lesbians, who Warren thinks are second-class citizens. But it’s nice to know that pointing this out it “bitchin.”
To call anyone a bigot is simply ignorant when you have never been in their shoes. What right have you to judge someone who you think is judging you (or others)? Does that make you any better? Real change doesn’t come from judgements. You have to have real relationships with people for who they are, different perspectives or not. Only then will we ever see real change. We all think that we are entitled to our “rights” but really we are just privileged to live in this country. I don’t agree with homosexuality. I don’t have to, that is my right. You can judge me, but I am not going to judge you. Judgements never lead anywhere good. They just turn the self-assured into hypocrites. I would know, there are plenty of us who love Jesus and are foolish enough to walk in this manner.
I don’t agree with homosexuality. I don’t have to, that is my right. You can judge me, but I am not going to judge you.
It is absolutely your right. It is also a judgment. It would be really nice if you would make a consistent argument.
What right have you to judge someone who you think is judging you?
The same right you have to believe that homosexuality is wrong. And furthermore, I have the evidence on my side: Warren is a bigot because he believes in discriminating against gay people.
I like how many people on this thread object to the use of that language, but none of you have actually bothered to explain how treating people differently based on which sex they are attracted to is anything but bigotry.
This thread is increasingly convincing me that, if anything, I’ve been too soft on Warren and his apologists.
Caleb wrote: Don’t you also have the fear of God[?]
No.
If you are gay, you are gay. Get over the politics of it and live your life. You can’t expect to be treated exactly as the rest of us, because you do live an entirely different life style. You can’t plug a lamp into another lamp and expect them both to light, you plug the male plug into the female wall outlet. This may sound crude, but you are going against the stream of nature. Society has accomodated the gay lifestyle about as much as it can. You were born that way. Some people are born with other things that separate them from the majority, and we accomodate them also, but life is not going to be perfect for any of us. Husband and Wife still means man and woman and that is the way it is. You can be partners and have all the rights you need to live a happy life, so do it.
Dear Richard:
How very brave of you to ask other people to be content with fewer rights than you have.
It is plain that many, many homosexuals are arrogant and condescending toward Evangelical Christians — even to the point of telling them what they believe. It is equally plain that this irrational, ignorant behavior assures that Evangelical Christians will continue to fight “gay marriage” as long as they breathe.
There is no fundamental human right to gay marriage. Sorry, there just isn’t. Never has been.
There is a fundamental human right to religious expression.
Personally, I am sick and tired of the bitching, crying, and whining coming from some members of the gay community.
Any rational, humane person would happily support people contracting with each other in any way they want to — civil unions.
Instead, certain gays spend their time obsessing over the fact that many religious people consider homosexuality immoral.
That is never going to change.
Go whine to someone else.
Dear Gunner:
If you’re going to comment on this blog, you should know that a) we don’t accept assertions without evidence and b) we expect actual arguments.
Go whine to someone else.
Thanks for stopping by my blog to tell me not to “whine” here. I can tell you take “fundamental human rights” seriously.
It’s also nice that you obviously think your right to religious expression trumps those of others. After all, you think you have a right to have your religiously-inspired discriminations codified into law.
[...] by Evil Bender in Blogging, bigotry, wingnuts. trackback If you’re going to insist on complaining about how unfair it is that I’ve called Rick Warren a bigot for promoting laws that strip human rights from gays and lesbians, make an actual [...]
Evil, you were born with a defect. The plumbing a man has matches up with the plumbing a woman has. It’s pretty simple. You have all of your rights, just don’t expect us to pretend that a marriage of two people of the same sex is natural. Why do you think you have to adopt to have children? Da.
Richard,
Excellent work: shift the topic when you can’t win the debate.
Also, it might be helpful for you to know that I’m not gay. I support gay rights, but not because I’m attracted to other men. But it’s very telling that you assumed I was gay.
Who is shifting the topic? Answer the question, you can’t spin me.
Why do you think you have to adopt to have children?
I don’t.
Who is shifting the topic? Answer the question, you can’t spin me.
You shifted from human rights to whats “natural,” though that wasn’t the subject of my post or any of my comments. And then you asked a stupid rhetorical question based on a bad set of assumptions, and then you used the language of a Bill O’Reilly fanatic.
Please: contribute to the actual discussion, or go away. You’re not adding anything productive to the conversation.
That’s a lot of spin there Evil, I guess you are used to doing that. If you are a supporter of gay rights then answer the questions.
Obama is a politician and you better get used to that. He picked Waren for political reasons as all politicians do. He used you folks and now you are being thrown under the bus. Did you really think that a politician from Chicago was going to rise above the ruble and corruption like some sort of God. It ain’t gonna happen buddy, he is just like the rest of the Washington crowd, he will use you again in four years and you will probably fall for it.
Substantive. You still have defended nothing about your apparent stance against civil rights.
I’m going to adopt a policy of ignoring you and/or replacing your comments with pictures of cute bunnies until you say something that actually has substance and relates to the issue at hand.
[This post, as per my warning, replaced with a link to a cute bunny.] -EB
Just for the record, from Dictionary.com:
bigot: noun — a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Now, we could debate whether or not Warren is truly “utterly intolerant” of the belief that GLBT people are deserving of the same rights as hetero citizens, but I don’t think the moniker is unreasonable. If anything, it’s a matter of degree, not of kind.
Richard: You can’t expect to be treated exactly as the rest of us, because you do live an entirely different life style.
What about the same-sex couples who live identical lifestyles to their hetero counterparts? All that’s different are the mechanics of what happens in the bedroom. Why is that such a huge problem? Because it’s “unnatural”? So is in-vitro fertilization!
And on that note…
Why do you think you have to adopt to have children?
So, by that argument, hetero people who are infertile or past childbearing age shouldn’t be allowed to marry, correct?
Gunner: Instead, certain gays spend their time obsessing over the fact that many religious people consider homosexuality immoral.
See, no. You’re free to believe whatever you want to believe. Plenty of people believed — and plenty still believe, no doubt — that interracial marriage was immoral, even though the courts legalized it. Ultimately, though, your religious beliefs should not dictate what rights American citizens may or may not be granted.
(EB: apologies if I’m feeding the trolls. ;) )
It always amazes me that liberals are so intolerant of others opinions. True to form when someone is making point you can’t refute you CENSOR them! Very nice.
Dear “Trebor”:
Moderating comments on my own blog isn’t “CENSORSHIP.” Nor is insisting on actual debate.
But thanks for playing!
Hey, don’t pick on Rick Warren. If you want to pick on some really big heavyweights of the Religious Right, just Google or Yahoo “Dangerous Radicals of the Religious Right” and you can read what they have actually dared to say! So check it out and you will thank me for tipping you off! Buddy
Evil,
You run your blog like an old Soviet block country from the past, people that disagree or speak out disappear. A moderator does not remove people from the debate. You are so typical of the liberal left.
The main stream media is leberal but they always have to have meat to feed on. They will eventually go after Obama because their will be nobody else to feed on. Obama is like you, he avoided tough questions for a long time but the party will be over soon.
Hi Rick,
There have been no “tough questions” here, and only one question of any kind, except those posed by me in the post.
And comparing my blog to soviet countries demonstrates you don’t know a damn thing about either one.
From here on, I’ll be deleting immediately any comments that don’t add to substantive discussion.
My blog, my rules. If you don’t like it, leave.